Siegels Flying Under the Radar

Two weeks have passed since I spent a day and a half at the New York City Municipal Archives.  My research there left me with new information and new frustrations.  That seems to be how it goes when searching for family records.  But onward I plug because ultimately the victories are sweet.

When I planned the trip to New York I compiled a wish list of documents that I hoped to find.  The information in these documents could contain clues to help me find relatives through maiden names, names of parents and perhaps even the name of the town from which they came to America. This list included the following:

Birth Certificates:

• Abraham Fine
• The Siegels born to Israel and Mamie (Abraham, Philip, Arthur, and Murray, Jack) in the US

Marriage Certificates:

• Israel Siegel and Sonia Persky
• Israel Siegel and Anna (Hodes?)
• Temmy Siegel and Harry Forman

Death Certificates:

• Abraham Mordechai (Morton) Fine
• Mamie Persky Siegel
• Sonia Persky

The results for the birth certificates was a surprise to me as I was unable to locate Abraham Fine who we KNOW was born in New York City.  Even more surprising was that I could not locate a birth certificate for ANY of the Siegels listed above.  When I searched the records for Siegel births I pulled more than 25 records of possible matches and none panned out!  I did not look for birth certificates for Temmy or Charlie because I expected that their certificates would not provide leads to new or missing information.

Next I found the marriage certificate of Matilda Siegel to Harry Forman.  This certificate clearly shows that Temmy was 17 and was born in New York.  It listed her mother as Anna Siegel and confirmed that Anna’s maiden name was Hodes.  I went one step further and pulled Anna Hodes’ sister Gussie’s marriage certificate showing that Gussie married Charles Rothouse.  This was special to me because Gussie and Charles were the parents of Ann and Pauline and it explained the relationship of Pauline Goldberg – Temmy’s first cousin – clearly in black and white.

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If you look at each of these certificates you can see that maiden names of the mothers of both the bride and groom listed.  This was a valuable clue.  Even though the name “Hodes” is spelled “Hordos” on Gussie’s certificate, I am sure that they are related!  If I had been able to locate the marriage certificate of Israel Siegel to Anna Hodes this would have been the perfect find.  I will keep looking and I urge any of the Siegels reading this to check their family files to see if anyone has this record among their papers.  Most likely to have this would have been Temmy or Charlie and I have not found this certificate among my parents things.

Most of us know the story about Sonia Persky and Israel Siegel.  Sonia (Sonie, Sunnie) was the younger sister of Mamie, Israel’s first wife.  When Mamie passed away (I have not found her certificate of death yet) Israel was left a widower with 5 sons.  Sonia Persky arrived in New York from Russia in approximately 1904 and married Israel March 21, 1905.  The certificate lists her age as 22 and her parents as Salomon Persky and Fannie Burger.  It also listed Israel Siegel’s parents as Moris Sigel and Gennie Schwartz (his first name and her maiden name = new information!).  Israel was listed as a widower and a builder.  The certificate is here:

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As you can see, this certificate also shows the place of their marriage,  and the name of the Rabbi, Mendel Zanisky.  Please let me know if anyone can decipher the name of the Shul.  It looks like Con. U.B. of ?  “Con” is likely “Congregation” and “U.B.” is likely “United Bretheren”.  The name of the synagogue could be an important clue as to the name of the town from which the Siegel’s and/or Persky’s came.  The last bit of information shows the street address for Israel and Sonie (yes, Sonie) as 262 Cherry Street, New York, NY even though the marriage certificate was from Brooklyn.

Sadly, Sonie Siegel died on December 25, 1905 from Pulmonary Tuberculosis, just 9 months after she was married.  The residence, 262 Cherry Street is the same as on her marriage certificate.  Her age was listed as 20 years and 4 months – interesting since her marriage certificate listed her as 22 years old – and her father and mothers names were the same.  It also states that she was in the U.S. for 17 months prior to her death.  This provides a clue to find her immigration records – assuming that the 17 months time is accurate.  Of note though she is listed as “married” her husbands name does not appear on the certificate at all.  Here is their marriage certificate:

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Finding Abraham Fine’s death certificate was bittersweet. Death of a family member, even a death from so long ago, is an emotional thing.  My dad, Leonard Fine, had told us that his father had died of stomach cancer and seeing this on the certificate was not something I was looking forward to.  What I was hoping was to find more information about Abraham and his parents.  The death certificate confirmed that Abraham Morton Fine was born in New York City and that he was 52 years, 5 months, and 26 days old on the day that he died, October 8, 1946.  It goes on to include his birth date of April 12, 1894.  (I searched the birth books and the microfilmed records at the New York Public Library and found no index with his birth certificate number there, nor could I find this certificate in the Municipal Archives search in their database or in the records there.)  The certificate also included his parents names including his mothers maiden name and their places but not dates of birth.  His parents were listed as Max Fine and Frieda Cooper.  This was information that was not new to me.

The part of this death certificate that left a lump in my throat was seeing the lines that noted the name of the informant of death and relationship of the informant to the deceased.  This person was  my father, Leonard Fine, and was signed in his very recognizable signature with the “M.D.” after it and the space for “relationship” was also in his handwriting saying “son.”  I do plan to look for the records of the Funeral Director, Zion Memorial Chapel, since the permit number is listed and often these records have even more family information.  Here is an image of his headstone:

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I am not inclined to post this certificate here.  If any family members wish to see if please let me know and I will send a copy.  If you feel strongly and wish for me to post it here please comment and I will listen to your thoughts.

Formans, this is for you!

Sorry I have not posted in a while.  I had quite a bit going on here.  I just published a 22 page newsletter for Jewish Genealogy Society of Greater Washington.  I am the editor and it is a quarterly publication.  Deadline met!  Next one is due out in September.  Whew!

So Forman Family.  This is for you!

First some background information.  My perspective regarding the Forman Family centers on Harry Forman, my maternal grandfather, and Temmy Siegel Forman, my maternal grandmother.  Here is a bit of the tree for reference:

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This portion of the Forman tree stems from Harry Forman.  It shows his parents Bessie and Max (Morris), his grandmother Fanny Forman, his siblings George, Ida and Meyer, and his wife Temmy with their children Shirley and Marcia.  I will add more of the tree later on.

There is much going on in the genealogy world right now.  The 1940 Census release in April has provided us with more information to search.  The database can now be searched by name in many areas including New York.  The records I found in 1940 so far were predictable.  I started with both of my parents, Shirley Forman and Leonard Fine.  They were just where I expected them to be in Brooklyn.

At the same time as the 1940 census release the New York Public Library released the 1940 New York City Telephone Directories and I easily found both Formans Pharmacy and Matilda Forman listed.  I am guessing that Harry Forman decided that listing his name at home was not such a good idea so!

Here is what the 1940 census page showed for Harry and Temmy Forman:

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As you can see, Harry and Temmy lived at 354 Wyona Street.  Shirley was 13 and listed as having 1 year of high school and Marcia was 3 years old.  Harry was listed as a Chemist at a Pharmacy.  Temmy was listed as “Matilda.”  The census shows that they answered “same address” as the last census (1930.)

AP7-4779

Applegate, or AP, 7-4779 was the telephone number listed for Matilda Forman at 354 Wyona Street.  This was easily located in the 1940 Telephone Directory which I was able to access at http://www.NYPL.org (New York Public Library web site).  Harry is listed as “Forman, H drugs” at 401 Vermont and the telephone number there is AP6-9882.  I will include the page in the gallery so you can all see the list of Formans in Brooklyn at the time.  When you find one or more that you recognize, please comment and include their names in your post.

When I first began to search the 1940 census I had to do so by enumeration district.  The names had not yet been indexed.  I had quite a time of it when trying to find anyone in Sullivan County – Mountaindale.  I literally had to go page by page to find Willie Forman listed as William Forman.  Fortunately, the name indexing for Sullivan County is complete.  Here is the page that shows William “Willie” Forman:

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This census page shows that William Forman is a hotel manager and farmer.  He lives at Park House in Mountaindale with a hired hand, Leon Mitchel.

If anyone in the family has more information about the hotel/rooming house in Mountaindale please send copies to my personal email address or notify me through comments to this blog site.  I am on the hunt for naturalization certificates and have written to the Sullivan County Clerk for a search for the certificates of Max Morris and Bessie Forman which, according to the NY State census of 1925 were filed in Monticello in 1917.

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More to follow very, very soon!

Fine and Paver, Neighbors in the 1920 Census. Coincidence?

While I was searching for information on the Pavers and the Fines I came across an interesting fact.  In the 1920 Census there is a Paver family living in the Bronx.  The name on the list just above the Paver name is Fine.  The Pavers in this census are definitely “our” Pavers, but are the Fine’s listed there our “Fines?”  I have no way of knowing – yet.  It could simply be a coincidence.

Here is what I found:  (if you click on the image if will open in another window and will be larger)

Okay.  Okay.  I know this is a lot of information on a small page with small type so let me break it down for you.  If you click on the image a larger version will open in a new window.  If you were to look on line 91, you would see a listing for a Fine, Peter who is 42 years old.  Below Peter Fine is his wife, Dora (37 years old), and their three children, Edward (16), Robert (6) and Edith (3).  Directly below this Fine family is Harry Paver, with his wife Sadie, and their two children George (5) and Milton (1).  The addresses are 229 (Fine) and 230 (Paver) Hunts Point Avenue in the Bronx.

Here is a shortened version:  (if you click on the image if will open in another window and will be larger)

The census shows that that Peter Fine was employed in “sweaters” and his son Edward was a clerk for a Millinery House.  The reason I found this of interest was that my father spoke of family in Maine who were in the Millinery business.  I use the phrase “were in the millinery business” lightly because it could mean nearly anything from designing to manufacturing to sales, etc.

Harry Paver was listed as being employed in “cigars”.  No surprise there.  Perhaps Harry was responsible for my father’s love affair with cigars.

This census “coincidence” – next door neighbors of Fine and Paver – makes me wonder if this Fine family was somehow related to Abraham Fine’s family and, if so, did they have something do do with how Mina Paver and Abraham Fine met?

Please comment on this post (and others) and let me know what you think!  Or perhaps….what you know!

Abraham Fine

At Passover we have the four questions.  With Abraham Fine we have way more than four.  Here are four to get started in finding the details of Abraham’s early life.

• Why can’t I find Abraham M. Fine in the Federal Census before 1920?
• Why can’t I find Max Fine or Freda Cooper Fine in the census before 1920 either?
• Where is Abraham Fine’s birth certificate?
• Where is Abraham Fine’s death certificate?

What I thought was very clear about Abraham M. Fine is that he was born in New York on April 12, 1894 (says so on his headstone so that MUST be right!), he finished elementary school on June 28, 1907 (I have the actual certificate proving this) at P.S. 171 in Manhattan.  He graduated from DeWitt Clinton High School on June 30, 1911 (I have this document, too).  I also have his NYC Teachers License,  State of New York Education Department Training School Professional Certificate for teachers, and his licenses for teaching all three levels of pre-college education in NYC. I also have his diploma from CCNY School of Education proving his B.S. Degree.

So, why I ask, oh why can I not find him in census’ data living near his schools?

The other very interesting thing is that there are several people known as Max Fine back in the early part of the 20th century.  One of them who I often find in searches is a tailor, who was married to Mollie and lived in Brooklyn with a big old bunch of kids.  Another was also named Max, but he was a diamond dealer and did extensive travel back and forth to Belgium (darn, I kind of wish it was our Max, don’t you?) and lived on Park Avenue. I have also found a Max Fine in the liquor business (likely to be ours, no?) listed in New York City Directories in 1889, 1892, and 1894 as Max Fine Liquors.  Though I was always told he had a dry goods or grocery store, I don’t have clear evidence. 

I am hoping to go to New York City in June and plan to go to see the birth record books at the NYPL in the Schwartzman Building.  I did find listings for Shirley Irene Forman and Leonard Fine in the birth books there a few years ago.  Now I have to find Abraham’s birth record somehow.  So here is my assignment for all of the Fine’s (and Pomerantz’s) with boxes of unsorted pictures and documents sitting in your houses –

PLEASE!  Go to your garages and storage rooms and pull down the boxes!  It stands to reason in a family of paper savers that we should be able to find more clues about Abraham!  If I have all of these certificates which came to me after Leonard died, than someone must have Abraham’s other papers and perhaps a birth certificate or death certificate.  It would be wonderful to find them instead of having to order them from New York State. 

Please do send me your memories of stories told about Abraham.  Details are welcome.  Not only do details help make for a great story, they also might help provide clues in unexpected ways!

 

Welcome

Every family has its secrets.  Our family is no exception.  Our family secrets are more like things left unsaid than things to be be cached away.  This blog is an attempt to expose us for who we are – genealogically!

As most of the family knows, I have a strong interest in learning about our ancestors.  I have spent the last few years researching and trying to document the various branches of the family in an effort to create a history for all of us now and the generations to come.  Included in my search are the families of Fine, Forman, Paver, and Siegel.  I will include the stories I have been told, the names of shtetls and places, photos of people and share the documents I have found and hope to find along the way.

Welcome to our family blog!